Caulerpa nutrient exporting, po4 and no3

Hey liquid,the use of your aquariums algae is in direct conflict with the site that I am not allowed to mention here, the talk is that algae can transport po4 when it dies you are left with that same po4,they say that applies to no3 as well?

liquidg wrote:Algae trimming



Algae ready to trim



Trimming algae



Trimmed algae



Hot water to kill algae and reintroduce it for use of nutrients.



Neatly trimmed algae area

Why do you differ so much from what they say?

That lot comes out with some over worded crap,honestly!!

They should stick with what they do best, getting you to buy stuff.

If you throw a few vague scientific term here and there and maybe a Latin word or two, people will think you know something more than just a little, especially on this subject.

Quite a few years back I was given the contact details by the Q museum of a marine biologist by the name of Merrick at Townsville that was the best at the time to ask questions about caulerpa and its functions, I past her responses onto that lot and they replied, why would any think the museum could help on anything about marine aquariums!

This helpful person,as far as i know,was part of the teacing fraturnity for the marine biolgists up there!

They have to guard their spot on the net, it’s a power, ego and somewhat mentally disturbed type of thing!

There is info on that site, the problem is there are also many disorders and opinions.

If I was to need something beyond what I have learnt of the last 30 years of endless experimenting, I would go to the forum,(reef central), they make the other lot appear like children playing in a sand box.

They still don’t realise what this rubbish about caulerpa going sexual means, it is suffering or dies from mistakes,it goes to spore, it is that simple!

Caulerpa needs good spectrum lighting,no uvr needed and can react badly to temps above 25c,plus with out added iodide,it will suffer and possibly die!

They rave on about macro algae (caulerpa) holding the waste it extracts from the water and when it dies it is still there and passed on upon death,( what the ) they should talk to a horticulturist on how plants function, if that was true that photosynthetic life in the planets oceans just hangs onto the waste it absorbs via osmotic functions, we would not exist, there would be no life at all on the planet, they are seriously deluded!

I new this would be good -

Here is some good info -

Phosphoruse 15th element on the periodic table with an atomic weight of 30.974, is an essential nutrient for all life forms. Phosphorus plays a role in deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA), ribonucleic acid (RNA), adenosine diphosphate (ADP), and adenosine triphosphate (ATP). Phosphorus is required for these necessary components of life to occur. Phosphorus is the eleventh-most abundant mineral in the earth's crust and does not exist in a gaseous state. Natural inorganic phosphorus deposits occur primarily as phosphate in the mineral apatite. Apatite is defined as a natural, variously colored calcium fluoride phosphate (Ca5F(PO4)3) with chlorine, hydroxyl, and carbonate sometimes replacing the fluoride. Apatite is found in igneous and metamorphic rocks, and sedimentary rocks. When released into the environment, phosphates will speciate as orthophosphate according to the pH of the surrounding soil.

Phosphate is usually not readily available for uptake in soils. Phosphate is only freely soluble in acid solutions and under reducing conditions. In the soil it is rapidly immobilized as calcium or iron phosphates. Most of the phosphorus in soils is adsorbed to soil particles or incorporated into organic matter (Smith, 1990; Craig et al., 1988; Holtan et al., 1988). Phosphorus in freshwater and marine systems exists in either a particulate phase or a dissolved phase. Particulate matter includes living and dead plankton, precipitates of phosphorus, phosphorus adsorbed to particulates, and amorphous phosphorus. The dissolved phase includes inorganic phosphorus (generally in the soluble orthophosphate form), organic phosphorus excreted by organisms, and macromolecular colloidal phosphorus. The organic and inorganic particulate and soluble forms of phosphorus undergo continuous transformations.

The dissolved phosphorus (usually as orthophosphate) is assimilated by phytoplankton and altered to organic phosphorus. The phytoplankton is then ingested by detritivores or zooplankton. Over half of the organic phosphorus taken up by zooplankton is excreted as inorganic P. Continuing the cycle, the inorganic P is rapidly assimilated by phytoplankton (Smith, 1990; Holtan et al., 1988). Lakes and reservoir sediments serve as phosphorus sinks. Phosphorus-containing particles settle to the substrate and are rapidly covered by sediment. Continuous accumulation of sediment will leave some phosphorus too deep within the substrate to be reintroduced to the water column. Thus, some phosphorus is removed permanently from biocirculation (Smith, 1990; Holtan et al., 1988).

A portion of the phosphorus in the substrate may be reintroduced to the water column. Phosphorus stored in the uppermost layers of the bottom sediments of lakes and reservoirs is subject to bioturbation by benthic invertebrates and chemical transformations by water chemistry changes. For example, the reducing conditions of a hypolimnion often experienced during the summer months may stimulate the release of phosphorus from the benthos. Recycling of phosphorus often stimulates blooms of phytoplankton. Because of this phenomenon, a reduction in phosphorus loading may not be effective in reducing algal blooms for a number of years (Maki et al., 1983). Health Effects of Phosphates: Phosphate itself does not have notable adverse health effects. However, phosphate levels greater than 1.0 may interfere with coagulation in water treatment plants.

As a result, organic particles that harbor microorganisms may not be completely removed before distribution. The growth of macrophytes and phytoplankton is stimulated principally by nutrients such as phosphorus and nitrogen. Nutrient-stimulated primary production is of most concern in lakes and estuaries, because primary production in flowing water is thought to be controlled by physical factors, such as light penetration, timing of flow, and type of substrate available, instead of by nutrients (McCabe et al., 1985). Freshwater system impacts: Generally, phosphorus (as orthophosphate) is the limiting nutrient in freshwater aquatic systems. That is, if all phosphorus is used, plant growth will cease, no matter how much nitrogen is available. The natural background levels of total phosphorus are generally less than 0.03 mg/l. The natural levels of orthophosphate usually range from 0.005 to 0.05 mg/l (Dunne and Leopold, 1978).

Many bodies of freshwater are currently experiencing influxes of phosphorus and nitrogen from outside sources. The increasing concentration of available phosphorus allows plants to assimilate more nitrogen before the phosphorus is depleted. Thus, if sufficient phosphorus is available, elevated concentrations of nitrates will lead to algal blooms. Although levels of 0.08 to 0.10 mg/l orthophosphate may trigger periodic blooms, long-term eutrophication will usually be prevented if total phosphorus levels and orthophosphate levels are Estuarine system impacts: In contrast to freshwater, nitrogen is generally the primary limiting nutrient in the seaward portions of estuarine systems (Paerl, 1993).

Here, nitrogen levels control the rate of primary production. If the system is supplied with high levels of nitrogen, algal blooms will occur. Systems may be phosphorus limited, however, or become so when nitrogen concentrations are high and N:P>16:1 (Jaworski, 1981). In such cases, excess phosphorus will trigger eutrophic conditions. The recommended level of total phosphorus in estuaries and coastal ecosystems to avoid algal blooms is 0.01 to .1 mg/l and 0.1 to 1 mg/l of nitrogen (a 10:1 ratio of N:P). The higher concentrations support less diversity.

Nitrates and nitrites are families of chemical compounds containing atoms of nitrogen and oxygen. Occurring naturally, nitrates and nitrites are critical to the continuation of life on the earth, since they are one of the main sources from which plants obtain the element nitrogen. This element is required for the production of amino acids, which, in turn, are used in the manufacture of proteins in both plants and animals. Phosphorus is essential to the growth of biological organisms, including both their metabolic and photosynthetic processes. Phosphorus occurs naturally in bodies of water mainly in the form of phosphate (i.e., a compound of phosphorus and oxygen).

Nitrates...friend of agriculture...not so friendly to water supplies.

One of the great transformations of agriculture over the past century has been the expanded use of synthetic chemical fertilizers. Ammonium nitrate is one of the most important of these fertilizers. In recent years, this compound has ranked in the top fifteen among synthetic chemicals produced in the United States. The increased use of nitrates as fertilizer has led to some serious environmental problems. All nitrates are soluble, so whatever amount is not taken up by plants in a field is washed away into groundwater and, eventually, into rivers, streams, ponds, and lakes. In these bodies of water, the nitrates become sources of food for algae and other plant life, resulting in the formation of algal blooms. Such blooms are usually the first step in the eutrophication of a pond or lake.

As a result of eutrophication, a pond or lake slowly evolves into a marsh or swamp, then into a bog, and finally into a meadow. Nitrates and nitrites present a second, quite different kind of environmental issue. These compounds have long been used in the preservation of red meats. They are attractive to industry not only because they protect meat from spoiling, but also because they give meat the bright red color that consumers expect. The use of nitrates and nitrites in meats has been the subject of controversy, however, for at least twenty years. Some critics argue that the compounds are not really effective as preservatives. They claim that preservation is really effected by the table salt that is usually used along with nitrates and nitrites. Furthermore, some scientists believe that nitrates and nitrites may themselves be carcinogens or may be converted in the body to a class of compounds known as the nitrosamines, compounds that are known to be carcinogens.

In the 1970s, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) responded to these concerns by dramatically cutting back on the quantity of nitrates and nitrites that could be added to foods. By 1981, however, a thorough study of the issue by the National Academy of Sciences showed that nitrates and nitrites are only a minor source of nitrosamine compared to smoking, drinking water, cosmetics, and industrial chemicals. Based on this study, the FDA finally decided in January 1983 that nitrates and nitrites are safe to use in foods. The addition of phosphates through the activities of humans can accelerate the eutrophication process of nutrient enrichment that results in accelerated ecological aging of lakes and streams. Phosphorus, especially in inland waters, is often the nutrient that limits growth of aquatic plants. Thus when it is added to a body of water, it may result in increased plant growth that gradually fills in the lake. Critical levels of phosphorus in water, above which eutrophication is likely to be triggered, are approximately 0.03 mg/l of dissolved phosphorus and 0.1 mg/l of total phosphorus. The discharge of raw or treated wastewater, agricultural drainage, or certain industrial wastes that contain phosphates to a surface water body may result in a highly eutrophic state, in which the growth of photosynthetic aquatic micro- and macro organisms are stimulated to nuisance levels.

Aquatic plants and mats of algal scum may cover the surface of the water. As these algal mats and aquatic plants die, they sink to the bottom, where their decomposition by microorganisms uses most of the oxygen dissolved in the water. The decrease in oxygen severely inhibits the growth of many aquatic organisms, especially more desirable fish (e.g., recreational catch fish such as trout) and in extreme cases may lead to massive fish kills. Excessive input of phosphorus can change clear, oxygen-rich, good-tasting water into cloudy, oxygen-poor, foul smelling, and possibly toxic water. Therefore, control of the amount of phosphates entering surface waters from domestic and industrial waste discharges, natural runoff, and erosion may be required to prevent eutrophication. Rocks may contain phosphates; those with calcium phosphate upon heat treatment with sulfuric acid serve as a source of fertilizers.

Phosphates, in addition to those found in fertilizers, are also present in such consumer products as detergent, baking powders, toothpastes, cured meats, evaporated milk, soft drinks, processed cheeses, pharmaceuticals, and water softeners. Phosphates are classified as orthophosphates (PO -3 4 , HPO -2, H 4 2PO4 , and H3PO4); condensed phosphates, or polyphosphates, which are molecules with two or more phosphorus atoms, oxygen atoms and in some cases, hydrogen atoms, combined in a complex molecule; and organically-bound phosphates. Orthophosphates in an aqueous solution can be used for biological metabolism without further breakdown. Orthophosphates applied to agricultural or residential cultivated land as fertilizers may be carried into surface waters with storm runoff and melting snow. Polyphosphates can be added to water when it is used for laundering or cleaning, for polyphosphates are present as builders of some commercial cleaning preparations for the public health sector. Massive algal blooms in lakes and floating foam on rivers aroused alarm in the United States in the 1970s.
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After it was shown that phosphates from detergents were a key factor, legislation banning the use of phosphates in home laundry detergents was passed in many areas. Phosphate legislation usually includes exemptions for products such as hard-surface cleaner and automatic dishwashing detergents used in the public health sector. Polyphosphates may also be added to water supplies during culinary water treatment and during treatment of boiler water. Polyphosphates slowly undergo hydrolysis in aqueous solutions and are converted to the orthophosphate forms. Organic phosphates are formed primarily by biological processes. They enter sewage water through body wastes and food residues. They may also be formed from orthophosphates in biological treatment processes and by receiving water organisms. Like polyphosphates, they are biologically transformed back to orthophosphates. One means of surface water protection from phosphorus addition in both domestic and industrial wastewaters is the use of phosphorus removal processes in wastewater treatment.

Phosphates are typically present in raw wastewaters at concentrations near 10 mg/l as P. During wastewater treatment, about 10-30% of the phosphates in raw wastewater is utilized during secondary biological treatment for microbial cell synthesis and energy transport. Additional removal is required to achieve low effluent concentration levels from the wastewater treatment process. Effluent limits usually range from 0.1-2 mg/l as P, with many established at 1.0 mg/l. Removal processes for phosphates from wastewaters utilize incorporation into suspended solids and the subsequent removal of those solids. Phosphates can be incorporated into chemical precipitates that are insoluble or of low solubility or into biological solids, (e.g, microorganisms). Chemical precipitation is accomplished by the addition of metal salts or lime, with polymers often used as flocculant aids.

The precipitation of phosphates from wastewater can occur during different phases within the wastewater treatment process. Pre-precipitation, where the chemicals are added to raw wastewater in primary sedimentation facilities, removes the precipitated phosphates with the primary sludge. In co-precipitation, the chemicals are added during secondary treatment to the effluent from the primary sedimentation facilities; to the mixed liquor in the activated-sludge process; or to the effluent from a biological treatment process before secondary sedimentation. They are removed with the waste biological sludge. In post-precipitation, the chemicals are added to the effluent from secondary sedimentation facilities and are removed in separate sedimentation facilities or in effluent filters.

Wow that’s an extreme read ignobolis,I must admit it explains a little of why Gladstone harbour has issues from the harbour floor being disturbed, though most of this is about freshwater.

When I did my horticulture course a bit of this was a part of it,you should sort through it and explain it so others can understand it easily, maybe a sentence or two on each paragraph to simplify it.

sorry that was the simplified explanation/ overview......

though it was mostly written in reference to the USA - i think a lot of the studies still relate globally....

long story short, everything is a unique balance, fragile and amazing - each part having its place, we need to better understand our impact on this to allow a sustainable existence for us all- both now and into our future generations....the aquarium with all its wonder can be a great place to get an appreciation and better understanding of this....the chemisty behind it is a great thing to understand...and we are always learning....

Thank you for the helpful; and honest replies liquid and ignobolis.

This is all a big learning curb for us; we have not had a marine aquarium and just want to find out the best way to do it and collect some critters for it.

The last photo of your aquarium liquid is very impressive as it has been from the first to now, if this wasnt seen i would not believe the results over so many at the other site preaching totally opposite ways.

From what I have read on the subject you have to have a skimmer to have success with a reef tank and you don’t have one liquid and the results are staggering in such a small tank, this is confusing.


Is it true you do not do water changes?

Hello??????????????

Hello maddy,I have been very busy, we have the clubs weekend away and it takes a bit to get organised and work as well.

Put simply,you keep following that lot and if it is not backed up by mechanical filtration it can’t work!

That means skimmers.reactors.dosing pumps and so on.

Mine copies the natural processes of the sea and land, this is after many years of trying each and every possible way on a natural level to see what does what.

The pre filters take out sizeable waste paricles,not the ammonia given off, that is valuable to my system.

The algae is next and its area design converts all substances out side of the nitrite cycle to valuable trace elements, the surface it grows on in the way it is designed oxidises nitrate and a little nitrite with the help of lights out producing co2 from the algae, then some coralline is broken down to sustain good PH and KH and extract water soluble,strontium, magnesium, calcium!

The algae makes from nitrate, phosphate,and so on via photosythesis,amino acids,most vitamins and other minerals.

The wet sections further on, oxidises any remaining nitrate,nirite to nitrogen feeding the algae a little more.

You see, every thing that is produced in the aquarium is accounted for, nothing is left, so no water changes are needed and all trace elements are accounted for,the water is affectively better that the ocean its self.

Though the system only produces minimal calcium-strontium,magnesium and that’s fine,I stopped adding some extra in November any way as I do not have the room in the tank for corals to grow fast.

So far everything has more or less tripled in size, that’s to much all ready.

Believe what you like,but except for the lights-$192,the chiller-$600,the rest cost me under $250 and this system I designed to sustain 3-three foot aquariums, oh and I catch all life myself!